One odd thing (at least to me):
Even if you follow the default behavior, the changes will show up in the versioning of the original document. To wit, if you ask that all versions be displayed, the original document will display on the left, while the changed document will be on top of the stack on the right.
Sure, because as I explained in the earlier article (http://tidbits.com/article/13187),
Autosave is still saving the document as you work, no matter what you say. So the document without the changes was then saved with the changes and then without them. (It's just like how in a version control system like git you can check out an earlier commit and commit that.)
Only Apple could make something simple and longstanding utterly confusing like this. I'm still confused. Which changes is it "not saving" (but resaving an older version)? Doesn't autosave happen as we go along? So does Save As (don't check the new box) pick from the last time I opened the doc, or from some random point since then, because it's autosaving at random intervals?
Or do I totally misunderstand the word "autosave" and it doesn't really save while it's open, only when I close?
Yes, I'm still using Snow Leopard. ;-) Thanks.
It does exactly what you expect: it reverts to the document when it was last opened or *explicitly* saved. Do you think I should have been clearer about this in the article? I sort of assume we're all on the same page at this point...
Thanks. Obviously Apple hasn't been on the same page as some of its users, soooo...I just wasn't sure. Plus, as I said, I'm still on Snow Leopard, so all these articles about the Save/Save As/Auto-Save/etc. stuff is all theoretical to me.
Now I feel comfortable upgrading (once I re-check that all my software is ML-compatible.) Thanks!
I revised the article in light of your question (and some other comments), so thanks for asking!
I'm sure you're aware that PowerPC-only applications and plug-ins won't work in Lion and Mountain Lion: http://tidbits.com/article/12156
I remember the article and that change, but thanks for the reminder. Mostly what I found was a few old games I like but haven't played in eons. I gave a few of them a quick play out of nostalgia. ;-) Fortunately the one real app I use daily that showed up...now has an Intel version (yay!).
I wish it was as intuitive to everyone as it is to you.
First, I get from your explanation that Save As renames the doc I'm seeing and also keeps a copy of the old one. But "keep changes in original doc" alone REALLY doesn't indicate *which* changes (e.g. changes made since last Cmd-S) are retained in the old doc. So when I open the one I'm not currently looking at (which now can be described as both a copy AND the original doc) it'll have what? Ok, it'll have everything up until the last Cmd-S. Wait, no, it'll have everything since the last time I opened the doc. Whoa. But did my opening the app with the Resume feature having brought into view the doc I worked on yesterday actually "open" it or just "resume"??
Bottom line, this is all *needlessly* confusing. Save As should behave either:
A] as it did for decades prior to Lion, or
B] it should bring up the two (old & newly created) docs side-by-side — with Undo & Redo infinitely enabled on each.
Now if we can get Apple to let us completely disable Resume... I'd be even happier.
NOW, I can finally seriously consider the monumental hassle and costs of upgrading from Snow Leopard. Small stuff like this really matters for designers who do many variations and copies of work using save as… to show clients, art directors, or even as part of the iterative design process. This was one big thing holding me back. I need absolute control of how my documents are saved, copied, or duplicated.
Now if Apple would just stop its horrid use of skeuomorphisms on the interface and applications. Users no longer need kitschy fakery to work. Be more Swiss with the interface Apple, not Downton Abbey!
Couldn't agree more!
Pray tell, what does "This simple expedient puts paid to the entire matter." mean?
"puts paid" is an expression that means "finish off" or "puts to rest." It's perhaps more common in British and Australian English, but I liked the alliteration of it, and we enjoy exposing our readers to unusual words and phrases. :-)
What does "pray tell" mean? I mean, hey, we can play that game forever.
No Matt, its already had a good innings.
It means "please tell" I couldn't ask for clarification using Modern American English could I?
Quod non probatur. Utendum est Latin.
Using 10.8.2. Not seeing the "Save As" option. Created a text-edit doc., and "Save". Altered same doc. and only get the "Save" option. No "Save as" option.
What am I doing wrong?
Not working for me either, I'm on 10.8.2 + holding alt to get the " save as" dialog which is fine but when the save box comes up theres no "keep changes in original document" option.
You won't see the checkbox unless there *are* changes, though. You have to open, edit, do not save, and choose Save As, if you want to see the checkbox.
Very interesting. I wrote to Tim Cook a while back and told him the Save-As business was a dealbreaker for me. After 25 years of being a major Mac customer and advocate my family and I would buy no new ones requiring 10.8 till it was changed. Guy from Apple in Texas called me in response and said it would be fixed in an upcoming release - and it was. Very interesting and very out of character for Apple to respond to customer complaints. Now let 'em fix the maps in iOs 6.
This whole area has always been a source of pain for me.
I think the functions needed are:
make a copy of the file ( with a new name/ location) - but do not open it.
rename this file (and keep editing it)
Those two (plus make a save, which we do not need now) I think cover the functionality more simply and more clearly.
The duplicate s almost this…
The only program I ever used with 'save a copy of this file' was Notepad++ on windows.
One additional question -- does TextEdit (for instance) write to your original file even if changes aren't saved? My situation is that I use TextEdit (also Preview) as a viewer of custom RTF (PDF) written from another text editor (TextEdit will display some things that it can't create). In Snow Leopard I can fearlessly experiment in TextEdit's window, but if Mountain Lion's TextEdit writes on my file and then reverts it, my custom changes will be destroyed. So... anybody know the answer?
As you work in TextEdit, your changes are continuously being saved. That is what Autosave means. However, you can give a command-line incantation which turns off Autosave, either globally or for a particular application such as TextEdit; I have not tried this.
I tried the new behaviour in TextEdit and found that the first time I selected Save As... the “Keep changes in original document" checkbox was checked by default.
Once I unchecked it it has remained unchecked on all subsequent save as, even with new documents.
And the same behaviour using Pages. First time you Save As... the option is checked, uncheck it and it remains unchecked. Presumably if you check it again it will remain checked for all subsequent Save As... operations.
Thanks; I think I'll work that into the article.
Where are the "autosave" documents saved?
Doesn't it bloat after some time?
Now that ML is fixed, wouldn't it be nice if they also applied the same fixes to Lion.
My 2008 Macbook can upgrade no further than Lion, which I have had to install to get upgrades to Apps that I need.
Three different op systems in major use: ML/L/SL, all with different Save As behaviour!
Definitely not what I have been used to from Apple over past 20 years.
But when I upgrade machine (soon) to go to ML, at least this will not be an issue.
Oh! My Macbook will go to my kids .... I still have to deal with this :-(
Very good point. I had forgotten that there are people who can use Lion but not Mountain Lion. Maybe for the kids the best option is to clean the machine and install Snow Leopard again.
You're providing a great service to the community on this Save As issue. In your last comment suggesting going back to Snow Leopard, I'm in that situation with several of our family's 9 Mac's. The quandary for these older Intel Macs is that you must go at least Lion to get iCloud functionality. Going back to SL means giving up iCloud.
I started using ML about a month ago, and have recently started reading these type of threads in order to make sure I understand how the new document model works and how to get back to the older "normal" behavior.
One thing that I find a bit disconcerting, perhaps since I am not sure if this model distinguishes between explicit save and autosave versions, is this -
1) If this document versioning actually uses the Time Machine model (ie. hourly for 24 hours, daily for week, weekly for a month and so on), then isn't it possible that opening your document many times, editing, but not saving it, could conceivably cause you to lose one of your explicitly saved versions or your original version since it could be culled from the versioning repository?
2) Does anyone know if the explicit saves and autosaves are treated differently during the culling from 24 hour versions to monthly versions and so on?
3) Has Apple clearly explained how the versioning and culling decisions are made?