Do You Use It? Apple Intelligence
It has been a year since Apple introduced Apple Intelligence at WWDC 2024. Back then, I was cautiously optimistic that Apple’s approach of integrating artificial intelligence into its operating systems and apps would feel fresh and relevant (see “Examining Apple Intelligence,” 17 June 2024). However, as the actual features slowly rolled out across several updates, I found them to be underwhelming. The most compelling one—an LLM-enhanced version of Siri that could understand personal context and control numerous apps—was eventually pushed into the indefinite future.
But is my low opinion of Apple Intelligence representative of the TidBITS audience? And which of the many disparate Apple Intelligence features are the most (and least) appreciated? Let’s find out in this week’s Do You Use It? poll, which asks, “What has been the impact of each of the current Apple Intelligence features on your everyday experience?”
Discourse doesn’t support the type of poll I want to conduct here, so I’m using Google Forms instead. Please respond with “Haven’t Used It” if Apple Intelligence cannot run on your device, if you have turned it off, or if you’re unaware of the feature. Select “No impact” if you can use Apple Intelligence, have it turned on, and have tried the feature, but find no utility in it.
After filling out the form it clarified just how far from the target audience I appear to be. Most of the AI ‘features’ I haven’t tried - typically because I see no value in them. Genmoji, good grief…
For me, the only thing which has made a tiny impact is clean up in photos. I’ve probably used it five or six times in total. I used the writing tools a couple of times when it first arrived but not since. It was OK but hardly impactful.
AI to me is a swing and a huge miss.
When I upgraded last September, I opted for an iPhone 15. As well as a lower price point, than the 16, there was no AI possible. While I have used AI in my job when analysing data, I didn’t feel it was something useful to have in my pocket.
I have to admit that found a great use of clean-up in Photos that I hadn’t previously considered. (and I’m against using it for everyday photo-memories.)
In preparing a 50th anniversary of a world record at a tennis club I had to copy a B&W print which had a horrible smudge-mark above a person’s head.
The background was out of focus foliage and within a second or two it removed the smudge perfectly. I could have done this in Photoshop but it would have taken some time to do it well.
So that time saving was much appreciated! I serious recommend using it for cleaning up damaged prints you need to copy.
I basically ticked only casual use of Writing Tools on my Mac. I’d use it more if there were a decent interface to diff and accept/reject in an itemized way. Alas there isn’t. So my Writing Tools use remains unfortunately very limited.
None of the other Apple Intelligence is attractive to me (so far at least). I’m anxious one day being able to do something like “Hey Siri, what is my setting for automated update downloads?” or “Hey Siri, open a new Safari tab for MLB.com and hit the standings link, then scroll to the MLB West section.” I have a not so great feeling we’re still quite a way from getting that. Were I Tim, that’s where my effort would go (productivity), not this genmoji garbage (eye candy).
Early results suggest that we are REALLY not using Apple Intelligence or finding much value in it. So far, the only features that have a higher Some Impact column than No Impact are:
And in each case, by far the most common answer is “Haven’t used it.”
I tried the categorisations in Mail. I gave it 3 almost identical emails to categorise which got 3 different categories.
Genmoji is on the to-do list for my new app but not because I really want to use it.
I haven’t turned AAI on (iPhone 15P). However, I have found the Photo app’s CleanUp functionality to be quite useful. It’s available even without AAI being enabled.
I don’t use it. It really doesn’t interest me.
I basically don’t use it and the one feature I noticed (mail categories) I turned off pretty quickly. I have used AI though - I use Perplexity rather than Google/DuckDuckGo search now with very good results.
I’m an inveterate “try-er,” so I have either casually swiped at all of those features or am hallucinating that I have. (Hey, if AI LLMs can do it, so can I. So there!)
The Writing Tools feature is of no use to me, for reasons I’ve posted previously.
The Mail categorization feature spectacularly does the opposite of what it’s intended to do: it gets in the way of me scanning my inbox and deciding which messages need to be read first. After each iOS update, when Mail on my phone once again has the feature switched on, I stare for a moment at three (just three?) “priority” messages and realize my Inbox has been whisked off my desk by a too-helpful assistant.
The others seem like toys or placeholders.
I am not writing off Apple Intelligence, but this iteration seems like pretty weak tea. I remain hopeful that Apple will someday figure out how to make the technology useful, non-creepy, and compelling.
I have tried enough AI to discover its limited use (transcribing audio if you check it for errors) and serious limits (every connection Ancestry AI has suggested that I checked was wrong), I have no particular interest in seeing what kind of mistakes Apple Intelligence can make. I would never trust AI with categorizing my email after seeing the damage Google Categories and a badly designed (probably involving AI) a bad spam filter can do.
Since upgrading to 15.5 Mail has an annoying new “feature” where when you are replying to someone it tries to suggest some words and you can’t continue typing without pressing ESC first. This is on my MBP. How do we turn that off?
I’m afraid the only way to get rid of that would be to turn off Apple Intelligence altogether.
It’s truly annoying that there is no more granular setting. I might want to use Writing Tools every once in a while, but that does not mean I also want some dumb bot to try to auto reply to my professional email.
Adam, you neglected to permit one obvious response: “negative impact”.
And it seems to be every single mail.
I just asked ChatGPT and it told me I can turn off “show inline predictive text” in Settings > Keyboard Text Input > Input Sources.
It gave some other suggestions too. I just tried that one and will see how it goes.
I’m afraid that’s typical ChatGPT garbage (or in newspeak: “hallucinations”). That setting has always been off here and nevertheless, ever since 15.5 I’ve been getting these inline suggestions. The only way I can turn them off is to turn off Apple Intelligence entirely.
I only have old phones, but on my Macs I have shut off Apple Intelligence. If I want something that tells me things that might be wrong that I then have to double check to see if they’re correct, I’ll talk to the nearest toddler. It doesn’t save time, it makes things take longer since I could just go figure out the answer for myself instead of verifying dubious info fed to me by fancy autocomplete.
Adam didn’t break out Writing Tools: a professional writer I would never use the “rewrite” ones, but I do use Proofreading and find it very helpful. It catches spelling errors a spelling checker won’t (like homonyms), as well as missing or duplicate words and other grammar errors. Summarize and Key Points I’ve played with and found occasionally useful.
I’ve started using ChatGPT via Siri quite often. Mostly I use it when I’m driving and I think of something I want to know and I can’t search the 'net myself right then. At first I was skeptical of the answers I got, but I’ve become impressed with how it well it works.
For example, the other day I was driving with a passenger and I came to a stoplight with a red right turn arrow. Many cars were pausing and turning as though it were an ordinary red light. My passenger and I got into a debate over whether this was legal. So on a whim I asked ChatGPT to settle our argument. I am in Oregon where right on red is legal. ChatPGT said that in Oregon you can treat a red right arrow the same as a red light. (You stop and then turn if safe.)
I was skeptical of this. Since it mentioned that the rules in other states varied, I asked it about California, where I used to live. Sure enough, in California you are not allowed to turn right on a red arrow. It is not the same as a red light there. That’s probably where I learned that.
This was confusing enough I searched the internet when I got home and confirmed both answers with actual DMV website driving rules information. I was impressed that ChatGPT got such a complex question correct!
I don’t think Apple Intelligence is an all-or-nothing situation. Everyone will have some things like they use and others they don’t. If most people have one or two that become indispensable, Apple will be successful with it. It’s still early days (less than a year). I’m not that worried that not everyone uses it or finds it valuable. If, a few years down the road, it is still relatively useless or people are actively avoiding it (for whatever reason), then Apple could have problem.
I would definitely love a better Siri and more integration with my own data so I could ask it queries about my own stuff (like did that thing I remember come in an email, website, or text message).
It isn’t supported on my iPhone 15.
Perplexity has become a steady co-worker for me, mainly on the ‘How do I…’ type of queries (I can definitely see the role of family nerd disappearing in the future). When writing, I use for research and honing in on things, I find it hits limits fairly quickly, but usually it has unearthed some interesting links to follow through on. I’ve avoided any writing help but the point about proofreading above may be useful.
OS updates every year are filled with features I never go near, a lot of Apple Intelligence too it seems. But I think their approach, AI gradually seeping into all and sundry, is probably going to work in the end.
On the other side of the coin, I’m currently restoring an oldish (1966) car. I asked ChatGPT to identify the engine type based on the engine numbers cast into the block. Completely wrong answers for capacity, transmission and year - although it seemed almost smugly confident.
Point is, I’ve had ChatGPT return me enough wrong answers that I’m now skeptical of anything it tells me. Conceptually I’m a big fan and I do use it - albeit via a browser - but it’s of little value if it’s incorrect. Hopefully by the time Apple integrates it well enough for people to adopt using it the models will have improved their error rate.
This was challenging because often “Haven’t used it” is a synonym for “No impact, it was so shit I had to turn off Apple Intelligence entirely”.
Example: Mail’s thread summaries mess up the threaded view, even if you turn off summaries—surely a bug, but no way to stop it without turning off AI systemwide. Or again, Siri’s announced notifications are always summarised, even though summaries are not otherwise wanted and aren’t displayed visually. And the Mail app’s suggested replies, as already discussed, are also impossible to disable using a preference in Mail itself. Just lots of cases where bugs and mediocrity mean that you simply can’t benefit from it, despite the potential of the features that do actually work.
So I agree with suggestion that “Negative impact” should have been an option. And until Apple make the settings more granular, sadly I’ll have to make do without the few nice features, like article summaries in Safari (which, curiously, don’t respect the global AI setting, but which do require article highlights …).
I already have SaneBox for email categories, and it’s superior to Apple’s AI; it’s probably easily implemented with rules, if I can only be bothered. And I find Perplexity and the ChatGPT app’s voice modes (triggered with shortcuts) to be superior to Apple’s Siri integration, though I hope Apple improves on that because it does have the potential to supercharge Siri, if only their implementation is ever allowed to exceed their marketing.
accidentally installed the photos app cleanup plugin. would like to delete it plus its annoying button. what a worse than useless feature. yet more proof that there’s no intelligence in that artificial …
It’s close, but incomplete. You want to turn off both “inline predictive text” and “show suggested replies”. Inline predictive text looks a lot like spelling autocorrect. When that was on, I was getting lots of weird accidental changes to my writing (I may type faster than that works), like inverted word order. “Suggested replies” is the thing that forces you to hit escape before you can hit the return key - it usually kicks in the moment you start to type a reply with suggestions to use “dear” instead of “hello”, or “hello” instead of “dear”.
And those settings are impossible to find! Why are they buried under keyboard? and then under “input sources”?
I asked Apple Intelligence a question a few months ago. The answer: Ask ChatGPT. I’ve never used Apple Intelligence since then and always use ChatGPT. It gives me a wrong answer every once in a while, but not very often. It has helped me out of a bind more times than I can count.
Interestingly, GPT-4o mini gets only CA right.
If I, after asking that question for the CVC, ask it “and what about OR?” it says it’s the same as CA, that is, you cannot turn right on a red arrow after coming to a complete stop. But according to what you posted per the OR DMV that is wrong.
I have to say though, IMHO the OR logic doesn’t make any sense. You’d install a right arrow instead of a solid red specifically to indicate no right on red (as in CA). If you want right on red rules, just use a regular red light (which could still be combined with a green arrow, if necessary). For once, I feel our way (the CA way) makes more sense.
For all those who have issues with ChatGPT, make sure that it’s doing a search rather than answering from its training data. In nearly every case where I’ve gotten a response that seemed really wrong, asking it to “confirm that with a search” pulled up the correct answer.
I haven’t seen it again since turning off that setting though.
Simple answer: No.
The poll link opened in Firefox to a blank page so I can’t fill out anything.
I don’t want anything to do with Apple or anyone else’s “AI”.
My iPhone 13mini I don’t think can use it, nor MBP on Sierra but MBAir on 15.2 might. I tried to avoid downloading Apple-I and saw some notation in Settings saying A-I use required two language settings to be the same so I make sure the languages are different so the Mac can’t use it if it does somehow get installed.
Exactly. Mail is where they belong. Certainly not buried three stories deep under Keyboard.
Strange—it works fine here:
https://forms.gle/p51WJSEa55XUKTQGA
Basically, I found most of it so annoying that I turned AI off altogether.
I upgraded to the 16 Pro Max for 3 reasons; to play with the AI, to use the new camera features and lenses and hopefully to benefit from the richer Siri interface. Had no luck with any of the 3. The AI is not intuitive and rarely gives me a better answer than a regular search, the camera features and extra side button are complicated and difficult to use quickly and Siri is slightly more intelligent than a sleepy chihuahua if not downright wrong or confused. I am disappointed in the 16 and its underwhelming software. I’m surprised so often by garbled software (the camera options, even after a training session at Apple), even Safari results, and more. Can I go back to the iPhone 7, which gave me the best photos I’ve taken, but with one lens
and did the simple things I need from a phone? I’m planning on buying a small, quick focus camera to take the place of the 16 mess. By the time I turn off the extra features, the photo is gone. I could go on. I won’t upgrade to the 17.
Thanks @ace the link opened fine in Orion. Then I checked and realized google.com is blocked in Little Snitch for Firefox but not Orion.
Filled out the poll, thanks for posting it, looking forward to the results!
I haven’t used many features, but I like priority notifications, I absolutely love notification summaries - I don’t care if they’re occasionally misleading, and I hate that apps can opt out; I think I should be able to decide that I want them - and I’ve used “hey siri, ask ChatGPT …” a few times, and I think it’s made Siri responses last more useful. Everything else so far is meh.
As a linguist, I find it interesting that Apple would essentially be seduced by the “a” of the abbreviation AI, and make massive investments and all sorts of claims about how it was going to use conventional AI in specifically Apple ways. We pretty much all must agree that this has been a cosmic failure. And I think the great hazard of this bad start is that even if they do make it better, we’ll be reluctant to give it another try, based on an initial bad experience. But I watched an interview with Apple execs on AI yesterday and they insisted that it was at work in many ways that were not readily apparent to users. So maybe it is, I don’t know.
Ultimately, I think the current trend of every big tech company rolling out a half-baked “AI” solution is going to poison the term for a long time. And I’m OK with that.
In the long term, there will be a variety of useful app features (photo editing, text summarizing, speech recognition, etc.) which people may or may not use, depending on how well those features work, and people will stop caring if the underlying software is based in “AI”, a human-designed algorithm or anything else.
As for privacy concerns, once most consumer devices get powerful enough for on-device ML processing (Apple is getting pretty close, and other platforms are not far behind), most of those concerns will fade into the background, much like what we think about other kinds of web servers tracking data. Something important, but no more or less important than all other kinds of tracking, and something that can be avoided by avoiding certain sites/apps.
I’m a developer and use chatGPT on a daily basis. I find that it gives pretty good answers to programming questions that are highly specific, with lots of detail. The more general, the more likely to get hallucinations. I have seen it improve drastically after the past 2+ years. I have also used it successfully for planning the outline of a 2000-mile road trip last fall, and for lots of small random stuff. I’m glad to be using it for the most part. I will retire at the end of the year, and I do worry about the future of my profession, and society in general, due to the unintended consequences of “AI”.
I think most is going to fizzle out.
In the 80’s, people were concerned about AI in the form of expert systems. There was panic that the software would make all kinds of high-paying professions like doctors and lawyers obsolete. Until companies started shipping products and the world found out that they were not nearly as good as the vendors’ marketing departments were claiming.
Expert systems are used today, but only in certain niche areas, where they have proven particularly useful. And the rest of the world has moved on to chase the next shiny thing.
I think today’s neural-net-based ML software is going through a similar fad. Ultimately, it will prove useful in certain areas (e.g. speech recognition, real-time translation, image recognition) and people will abandon it in other areas.
The LLM chatbots that everybody is so afraid of today are going to be relegated to tech-support phone trees, replacing today’s minimum wage script-readers, and may become an integral (and no longer special) part of search engine queries.
Replacing everybody’s jobs? Not unless these bots can prove themselves capable of actually doing all those jobs without a real expert driving the process. So far, I haven’t seen much evidence of that and I don’t think we will.
And then the world will start chasing the next shiny thing (quantum computing, perhaps?) and will start claiming that it will be the thing that renders human beings obsolete.
I do not use any AI intentionally.
Being outside the US, enabling Apple Intelligence requires changing System Settings to American language and then Apple Intelligence comes up on the Siri panel and then it an be enabled. I found out how to do this through Chat GPT; this advice was not provided by Apple itself.
I have been using Chat GPT for some time and I do believe Adam got it right when he described it as being an answering function and not a search function as is Google Search (although Google’s AI responses are becoming quite good).
Now that I have managed to get Apple Intelligence working on my Mac, I have tried it out. The Mail sorting and delivery monitoring is quite good, and I am very pleased that Spotlight seems to be able to now find a file on my Mac, but I am indifferent to most of the other offerings by Apple Intelligence. To some extent I would like an Apple Intelligence app that I can just open and ask for responses rather than its embedded approach.
My preference is to continue using Chat GPT particularly as I can dig into its responses by narrowing or expanding my interrogations.
I haven’t used it at all. One of the uses that Apple would be looking at is to allow more natural language to control Siri. You want to set up more complex trips in Apple Maps, then just tell it what to do. Set up something in Calendar by asking it for the first free Saturday in July, etc. Finda a photo of X. What a great ad to show someone having a fairly normal conversation with their phone.
This is a conundrum for me. I CAN’T use it on my iMac or MacBook Pro as they are maxxed out at High Sierra and Monterey respectively. However, my iPad Mini 7 is at 18.5 while my iPhone is at 17.7.2 (I plan on installing 18.5 in August). So I guess “Haven’t Used It” is the best response.
Something I’m assuming about AI in general is that it won’t work particularly well for whatever it might be used for at first. Unlike programmed tools, which continue to work the same way, AI supposedly learns from your interactions with whatever function it’s supporting, and thus over a few weeks (for fairly frequently used functions) it should become much better at working with you for your needs. I also am assuming I’ve used Apple Intelligence in that I’m assuming Apple has incorporated some aspects of AIAI into its apps. For example, I noticed that shortly after AIAI was introduced, Apple’s spam filter started filtering out noticeably more emails I’d have wanted in my inbox. If that’s due to Apple adding AI to its spam filtering (the issue I noticed could be just Mail getting worse), I presume that as Mail relearns what emails I move to my inbox/mark Not Junk, and perhaps also the ways I interact with my email, that feature will improve (maybe becoming better than it used to be, even).
I filled out the whole form, showing I use it more than I thought, however, in order to submit the answers, I had to log into Google? Why? I don’t use anything Google. So I guess the main places I use it is in Mail (altho not too sure on categories yet), and Siri (ChatGPT) but not yet in photos… overall, it hasn’t made a great impact on my computer life.
You only need to sign into Google if you want the ability to save your answers to a partially completed survey before completing it or to revise a completed survey.
I did not login when I completed my survey response.
Ideally, that is the case, but it doesn’t always work that way. There are several well-known phenomena that cause AI models to decrease in accuracy with increased usage. It’s one of the things that can really slow down advancement of AIs. Probably the best known example is model collapse, but there are others.
One of the risks of Apple aggressively pushing the branding of “Apple Intelligence” is that end users may not always know which features actually use it or not, so any case where an Apple device does not behave as expected or exhibits an actual bug gets blamed on “Apple Intelligence”.
In my opinion, Apple (and other purveyors of AI) would have been better off avoiding talk of “transformations” and “revolutions” while periodically introducing individual features once they are proven to work as intended. Of course, many marketing teams hate that. (I say that as someone who respects and appreciates the importance of marketing when done well. Despite the numerous Dilbert jokes about marketing departments, it is a very difficult job to do well.)
I have never found the “automatic” setting on anything to be very satisfying. Cameras on automatic mostly produce reasonable pictures, but not as good as I can do manually. And sometimes they completely stuff up.
Voice recognition, predictive text and writing tools are similar. Words are offered that are not words I would ever use. Many have a distinct American vernacular (say “going to” and it gives “gonna”). This is because they are generic and do not take account of the individual. Until they can take account of the individual, I cannot see them being helpful in many cases.
AI just seems to be a “better” automatic that still does not produce what I would create myself.
I’m not aware that Apple Intelligence, at least in its current incarnation, enhances Spotlight in any significant way.
There’s a really interesting article in the New York Times Magazine:
A.I. Is Poised to Rewrite History. Literally.
It addresses the complexity of LLM usage better than many current articles and I find myself wondering whether I shouldn’t spend more time really exercising ChatGPT and the like.
As for myself, I’m always open to trying new things, particularly when they’re free, so I’ve tried most all the Apple Intelligence thingies. Meh.
But with the exception of proofreading which seems genuinely useful I find most all of them rather useless. It is indeed amazing when you search for “red car” in Photos and it finds them. It is not amazing when it misses an obvious four of them.
I’ve come to the conclusion that you have to evaluate all this AI explosion by a simple metric: If you hired a bright young person (AKA real money involved) who instantly provided you with grammatical or logically correct reams of information and their product consistently turned out to be 30% wrong, you’d fire them the next day.
The NYT article shows why one shouldn’t wholesale dismiss the LLM tsunami but what catches my eye is their choice of interviewees. They’re all experts who can verify the data either explicitly or intuitively. What deeply concerns me is the huge, monstrous, number of non-expert users of the LLMs—they do not know that 30% of the responses are crap. That’s a recipe for disaster both personal and societal.
Dave
As I filled out the survey, I realized how many third-party (non-Apple) apps I use on my Mac and Apple devices. I use Arc for browsing, DuckDuckGo for web searches, Spark for email, Adobe Lightroom and Topaz PhotoAI for photos, and Excel and Word. So since I don’t use Mail, Safari, and Photos, I had to say “Haven’t Used It” for most of the questions.
Most of these have added “AI features” as Apple has, but I haven’t used most of these, outside of the features in the two photo apps.
I also have been using Perplexity for AI-based information searches, and keep being surprised at how often it finds and shows me information (real, not made up) that traditional web searches never found.
I don’t view LLMs and Generative AI to be any more of a threat to society than other communication channels were when they were new. Printed books, the telegraph, the telephone, radio, television, USENET, email, websites, instant messaging, push notifications, blogs, wikis, social media…just about every major advance in how people obtain information caused consternation and, yes, examples of misuse and abuse. But humans do learn and adapt. And let’s face it: most worries and predictions of doom related to new things become quaint and dated with the passage of time. The world survived the publication of books by Charles Darwin, D.H. Lawrence, and Henry Miller, the broadcasts of Elvis dancing, and students looking things up in Wikipedia, no?
I am not sure, but the Spotlight improvement coincided with the ‘new’ Apple Intelligence and this was alluded to in the recent WWDC.
Interesting observations, both about AI and marketing. I think the significant thing to consider is that AI isn’t intended to continue reacting going forward to your input the same way it does upon initial use. The intention (in personal computing AI) should ideally to be to adapt to your own personal computing behavior to provide added benefits. I don’t know enough about AI to know about the decrease in accuracy with increased usage that you mention, but even with that, it still should be the case that expecting AI to provide the same results after weeks of use that it does when you first try it out isn’t an accurate expectation. A person might not like the results upon initial trial, but might really like it after continued use. Or based on your caveat, might hate it even more after continued use.
Theoretically, AI’s adaptation to a person’s personal computing style could mean that someone else using that person’s computer might find the AI on it really frustrating, with quite different behavior than on their own computer.
Filled in with every box ticked as “haven’t used it” - in the Netherlands not all options are available and I do not trust the results of AI chatbots. However, now that I think of it, I do use descriptive searches in Photos to my advantage. It kind of works. Not perfect, but better than finding a date fo some past event in Calendar and then hope to find an associated picture.
Interesting point!
It’s not uncommon today to be frustrated when sitting down in front of a computer owned by someone with very different user interface preferences from your own. I notice it particularly when someone else has very different trackpad settings on a laptop, e.g., “natural scrolling”, gesture customizations, etc. I suppose eventually “AI” customizations will follow your account around, rather than be device specific.
I use Genmoji occasionally and it’s both fun and ‘useful’. Sometimes there’s not quite the right emoji I’m looking for or I want to send something intentionally humorous. Genmoji is quick and easy and does the job. This is where I think AI works well – specific and well integrated into existing tools.
I too am stil struggling to find a use case for Apple Intelligence for my personal needs. I’ve seen examples of Apple Intelligence working in videos but fully expect it to not work as well in the real world (for me).
LLMs provide much broader applicability than expert systems ever did. And while LLMs can provide wildly inaccurate information at times, hence need to be used with caution, expert systems were by design narrow, and never really lived up early claims of efficacy. I don’t think LLMs are going to be relegated to low-level jobs. They are evolving and improving rapidly. Still with many and serious warts, but nonetheless quite useful once you learn how to talk with them.
For me the only reason Apple Intelligence turned is for the natural language search in Photos. I was pretty amazed how well it works. The erase tool is good but I have apps that do it way better. The rest of Apple’s Ai? I have no use for it.
Haven’t used it.
Most succinct response to a question I’ve seen here in quite some time.
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